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quick hydragas question
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Jin
Posted 23/6/2015 4:57 PM (#718757)
Subject: quick hydragas question
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Posts: 159
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is it possible to remove the cans from the car without de-pressurising them?

i don’t mean fully remove but if i were to for example want to rust treat the subframe inside where they fit is it possible to lift them out or are they under load from the bottom arm?
What about if you jack up front and rear so no load is on them?

Cheers


Edited by Jin 23/6/2015 4:58 PM
 
R100_vvc
Posted 23/6/2015 7:40 PM (#718759 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question


Expert

Posts: 2029
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Location: sittingbourne, kent
I wouldn't remove the plates without letting pressure out, can could pop out easily
 
Jin
Posted 24/6/2015 3:32 PM (#718778 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question
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Posts: 159
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ok cheers

is "letting pressure out" the nitrogen side?
bit like deflating and inflating tyres?

cheers
 
Jin
Posted 7/12/2015 10:45 AM (#720515 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question
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Posts: 159
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right, I’ve spent a whole weekend on my back under the car measuring and calculating with the aim to remove the hydragas units and either fit complete coilovers in their place in their exact location or fit coil springs in their location with remote dampers (already done on the front of the GTI and not too tricky on the rear) unfortunately I can’t fit vertical coilovers on the rear due to lack of space which is a shame)

So the question

Working firstly on the rear of the car, If - with the droop stop (or what’s left of it) removed I can push the trailing arm down and all force is removed from the knuckle (the rod stops moving before the arm does) and it actually pops the knuckle out of the socket on the trailing arm, does that mean there’s no pressure acting upon it therefore meaning I can loosen / partly remove (restrained by the hose) the hydragas unit safely?
I know it sounds a bit barking but I need to remove all suspension force from the trailing arm in order to trial fit new springs in the proposed location and I don’t possess a hydrolastic pump so can’t easily fill - refill the system, if there is no pressure acting upon the trailing arm, then in my mind I should be able to remove it.
however I did slacken the 4 side cover retaining bolts and it didn’t feel free or as free as I would have expected, I did manage to get it to turn a couple of degrees using a strap wrench indicating at least there was less pressure acting upon it than when I tried the same with the car on its wheels.

Any help or advice much appreciated.
 
DotMatrix
Posted 8/12/2015 10:24 AM (#720518 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question


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I understand what you are saying about that it doesn't look like there is any pressure on the hydragas elements in this case and you should be able to remove them although I have never tried this with pressure still in the element so I don't know if you can.

how about buying a cheap used rear subframe from a scrappy. that way you don't have to lay on the cold ground and you can do al the measuring and fiddling you need with easy access?
 
ding
Posted 8/12/2015 5:42 PM (#720521 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question


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You the bloke from Cardiff? If you are I've got a Churchill so you can drain the fluid and re pump etc if it'll save you fooking about
 
Jin
Posted 8/12/2015 6:24 PM (#720522 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question
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Posts: 159
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Thank you both for your replies.

Dotmatrix
We are thinking along the same lines.
Fortunately I've done the majority of the measuring except the critical dimensions of the hydragas unit, what I need now is to see in real terms how the car reacts to certain spring characteristics.
I've concluded that my best option is to make a drop in conversion to replace the hydragas unit like for like in terms of springing with a remote damper, the tricky bit is calculating spring poundage, pre load etc, with the spring mounted at an odd ratio I really need to see how it all reacts with the full weight on the car hence wanting to pop out the hydragas can as and when to trial fit.

Ding
Thanks for the offer buddy, unfortunately I live in Telford so am some distance from you but its nice of you to offer the service, much appreciated, thanks for your consideration.

BTW if anyone has a spare hydragas can dead or alive that they wishvto sell \ lend I would be extremely grateful just so I can get some dimensions from it.





.

Edited by Jin 8/12/2015 6:51 PM
 
DotMatrix
Posted 9/12/2015 12:20 PM (#720525 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question


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Location: Jelling, Denmark
Just a thought. How about a spring with damper inside in the original position with the original rod system to avoid it dropping out?
 
Jin
Posted 9/12/2015 9:04 PM (#720530 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question
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Posts: 159
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I had considered this however it's not without drawbacks.

The coilovers available tend to have eye bushes at each end making it tricky to mount the lower end to the extension rod that bears on the trailing arm knuckle, you potentially have 3 pivot points along the assembly so it won't remain rigid, even if I use a coilover with a threaded end for a pair of donout bushes (as that found on the GTI front shock upper mount) you still only have one threaded stud to screw into the trailing arm pushrod which would have considerable forces acting upon it as the weight of the car linked to a 5-1 suspension ratio tried to compress it in length and ultimately bending it (the assembly) in half at the weakest point (that threaded joint).
The other option is to just use a coilover on its own mounting one end to where the sphere used to fit and the other end direct to the trailing arm located where the knuckle currently fits, which is all doable but would mean modifying (cutting - enlarging) the subframe where the pushrod passes through the hole in the subframe partition between the hydragas unit and trailing arm, I'm unsure how this would effect strength especially in an area of high loads,
Even this is achievable but the biggest drawback is in the coilover dampers themselves, if mounted direct in place of the hydragas unit they too have to operate in a 5-1 ratio, or to put it another way, have their performance reduced by 80%, this renders most off the shelf shocks useless especially since they have to move some degree in order to work properly and in reality they will only move around 5mm at most in day to day driving (equating to 25mm wheel travel) which is not sufficient for a shock to run its best.

Whereas a spring by itself (remote vertical damper) is still a spring albeit under considerable force.

Edited by Jin 9/12/2015 9:20 PM
 
t3gav
Posted 10/12/2015 9:50 AM (#720538 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question
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Posts: 664
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Location: Herts
Why don't you have room for a vertical coilover setup? No turrets?
 
Jin
Posted 10/12/2015 1:59 PM (#720546 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question
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Posts: 159
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No mate, the bodywork is fiberglass and although possible its a very specialist job to modify, the running gearbis 100% metro though

Edited by Jin 10/12/2015 2:03 PM
 
t3gav
Posted 10/12/2015 4:16 PM (#720549 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question
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Posts: 664
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Location: Herts
Ah I see, be good to see what you come up with.
 
Jin
Posted 10/12/2015 6:43 PM (#720552 - in reply to #718757)
Subject: RE: quick hydragas question
Regular

Posts: 159
1002525
Plus a drop in conversion Future proofs not only the metro but any hydragas / hydrolastic vehicle.

A displacer to measure will help speed things up if anyone has one?

Edited by Jin 10/12/2015 6:44 PM
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