Cold start and CTS issues.
 
paul-h
Posted 3/4/2016 1:44 PM (#721722)
Subject: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Hi folks, wee problem with my Metro gti. Coolant temperature sensor seems to constantly read 59 degrees when plugged in to a computer and the car is a nightmare to start from stone cold. Swapped to a known working CTS still the same.

Checked the wires back to ECU no breakages and also checked against data to see what voltage I was supposed to see at the plug which seems about right.

Anyone had this problem before and if so, how did you fix it?

Cheers.
 
111Sli
Posted 3/4/2016 2:44 PM (#721724 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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Where abouts are you?

I have a diagnostics machine that will plug into it if you come to me, or to PoL I'll have it with me.
 
paul-h
Posted 3/4/2016 4:08 PM (#721725 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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My mate has a diagnostic machine its telling me 59 degrees whether the sensor is connected or not.
 
111Sli
Posted 3/4/2016 7:51 PM (#721734 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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Does it throw up any other fault codes?

Try a new CTS mate, genuine Rover if possible.
 
paul-h
Posted 6/4/2016 9:05 AM (#721763 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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No not that I'm aware! Yeah gonna see if I can get one today!
 
111Sli
Posted 6/4/2016 10:04 AM (#721765 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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Remember that 1 is purely for the gauge and other is for ECU. Check on here as to which you need. Can't remember if blue or black.
 
Dave 20VTRO
Posted 6/4/2016 1:30 PM (#721768 - in reply to #721765)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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111Sli - 7/4/2016 9:04 AM

Remember that 1 is purely for the gauge and other is for ECU. Check on here as to which you need. Can't remember if blue or black.


Yes, I was going to say, make sure that the right plug is on the right sensor, gauge sensor has one pin, ecu sensor has 2 pins.
 
paul-h
Posted 8/4/2016 10:07 PM (#721789 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Yeah plugs are on the correct place.

Is there a fuel temperature sensor on these? If so where is it supposed to be?
 
Dave 20VTRO
Posted 8/4/2016 11:25 PM (#721791 - in reply to #721789)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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paul-h - 9/4/2016 9:07 PM

Yeah plugs are on the correct place.

Is there a fuel temperature sensor on these? If so where is it supposed to be?


These are only normally used on the 'T' series engine and are fitted on the fuel rail.
Does the temp change from 59 deg when you unplug the sensor?,
What does the air temp say?
 
paul-h
Posted 9/4/2016 7:01 PM (#721798 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Coolant temp says 59 regardless of plug on or off. We plugged in the air sensor plug to the coolant sensor and it's showing the correct figures. Air temperature seems good too.
 
Dave 20VTRO
Posted 14/4/2016 9:58 PM (#721843 - in reply to #721798)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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paul-h - 10/4/2016 6:01 PM

Coolant temp says 59 regardless of plug on or off. We plugged in the air sensor plug to the coolant sensor and it's showing the correct figures. Air temperature seems good too.


Sounds like you either have a duff sensor or the wrong one/type. What does it show with the plug off?
 
cooper1019
Posted 15/4/2016 7:46 AM (#721846 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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Check for any air leaks.
 
paul-h
Posted 21/4/2016 8:52 PM (#721888 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Does no one read previous posts here!! ??

Gonna smoke test the car at some point.

Car goes well when it's warm and doesn't seem to have any issues just the cold start that's a bastard!
 
Dave 20VTRO
Posted 21/4/2016 10:07 PM (#721890 - in reply to #721888)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Is it running too rich when it eventually does start?,
 
paul-h
Posted 22/4/2016 10:13 AM (#721894 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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It did smell quite a bit of fuel but seems a lot better now it's been used properly ha! But haven't seen properly if it's running rich or not.

It's like it's fueling for 59 degrees constantly as that's what the CTS is telling the ECU. 59 degrees is the reading with the plug connected or not.

Could anyone with a scanner and a 1400 16v engine tell me what reading they get when they pull off the CTS plug?
 
111Sli
Posted 22/4/2016 11:30 AM (#721896 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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On my SPi the CTS I have monitored it all the way up to the fan kicking in at 96 or something close. Should run about 89 iirc
 
Dave 20VTRO
Posted 22/4/2016 11:46 AM (#721900 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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What are the wire colour codes to your cts, I'll have a look at my early wiring diagrams
I have from Rover. Also what year is your GTi, ie SPi.MPI, alloy inlet manifold or plastic.
 
paul-h
Posted 22/4/2016 3:58 PM (#721903 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Wire colours have been checked back to ECU and are correct apart from someone previously has lengthened them but I tried them onto the plug from original wiring with the same results.

MPI with alloy inlet.

Thanks for the fan info but what I'm asking is, what does the live data read when you disconnect the CTS plug from the sensor it's self? As mine is reading 59 constantly I want to know if that's what these cars default to when the wiring is unplugged.

Thanks for replies!
 
paul-h
Posted 22/4/2016 4:03 PM (#721904 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Also another thing, this car may have had a chipped ECU at some point l.

Is it called icon or something?

Car is now on standard ECU but not sure what had to be hacked/changed for the chipped ECU to be fitted? It's possible whatever had to be changed hasn't been put back to standard to run the standard ECU properly?
 
Dave 20VTRO
Posted 25/4/2016 7:34 PM (#721919 - in reply to #721904)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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paul-h - 23/4/2016 3:03 PM

Also another thing, this car may have had a chipped ECU at some point l.

Is it called icon or something?

Car is now on standard ECU but not sure what had to be hacked/changed for the chipped ECU to be fitted? It's possible whatever had to be changed hasn't been put back to standard to run the standard ECU properly?[/QUOTE/]

Iirc the icon ecu tricks the std ecu into thinking that the temps are different, so the fuelling is upped and ign changed, its a piggyback ecu that plugs between the ecu and the engine, get a std ecu and alarm (if req), and try that, also if, as you say, the temp doesn't change if the sensor is
connected or not, and the wiring os ok, then the ecu is at fault, thats another reason to try another ecu.
 
Dave 20VTRO
Posted 25/4/2016 7:35 PM (#721920 - in reply to #721904)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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paul-h - 23/4/2016 3:03 PM

Also another thing, this car may have had a chipped ECU at some point l.

Is it called icon or something?

Car is now on standard ECU but not sure what had to be hacked/changed for the chipped ECU to be fitted? It's possible whatever had to be changed hasn't been put back to standard to run the standard ECU properly?[/QUOTE/]

Iirc the icon ecu tricks the std ecu into thinking that the temps are different, so the fuelling is upped and ign changed, its a piggyback ecu that plugs between the ecu and the engine, get a std ecu and alarm (if req), and try that, also if, as you say, the temp doesn't change if the sensor is
connected or not, and the wiring os ok, then the ecu is at fault, thats another reason to try another ecu.
 
paul-h
Posted 27/4/2016 10:09 AM (#721936 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Tried the ECU that's in the car (standard) and two other standard ECU's and all have the same problem. One ECU was a known working unit too...
 
cooper1019
Posted 27/4/2016 5:41 PM (#721941 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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The crankshaft sensor might be worth a look.
 
paul-h
Posted 28/4/2016 6:34 AM (#721947 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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I'll give that a look but not sure it'll change the CTS reading
 
111Sli
Posted 4/5/2016 10:57 AM (#721993 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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Did you ever get a brand new sensor put in?
 
paul-h
Posted 9/5/2016 8:15 PM (#722040 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Unfortunately not.

Couldn't source one.
 
metro190bhp
Posted 9/5/2016 9:41 PM (#722041 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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All you need to do to check the cts is working is put a volt meter on the pins of the sensor with it plug in. With it running when cold the voltage will be high and as the engine warms up the voltage should start to drop if working correctly
 
metro190bhp
Posted 9/5/2016 9:41 PM (#722042 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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All you need to do to check the cts is working is put a volt meter on the pins of the sensor with it plug in. With it running when cold the voltage will be high and as the engine warms up the voltage should start to drop if working correctly
 
paul-h
Posted 10/5/2016 3:19 PM (#722056 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Already done this but I'm going to double check this week and make sure the values are good. Checked against technical data that a mate got a hold of last and they were good.
 
Dave 20VTRO
Posted 17/5/2016 8:07 PM (#722092 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Just looked on my Rave, the coolant temp defaults to 60deg, and the ambient air to 30deg.
so your 59deg is close enough the 60deg imo,
its a bit drastic, but I would try another loom and ecu.
 
paul-h
Posted 19/5/2016 6:39 PM (#722100 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Thanks very much for checking that for me.

Yeah looks like it could be a loom swap with associated ECU

Thanks again mate!
 
111Sli
Posted 19/5/2016 11:54 PM (#722103 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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Try swapping throttle position sensor if SPi?
 
paul-h
Posted 24/5/2016 8:40 PM (#722136 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Its MPI.
 
cooper1019
Posted 25/5/2016 2:30 PM (#722143 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.


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My neighbours car had this very same problem from cold it was a pig to start but ok when warm.
He had the car into tuning places etc and spent ££££££££s on it but still no success.
I was looking at the car for him and asked him to start it up but still nothing . Then i put my finger under the air intake where it goes into the throttle body and noticed a small hole i put my finger over tho hole and result.
Worth double checking i think.
The hole was only a pin size hole.
 
paul-h
Posted 29/10/2016 11:00 PM (#722847 - in reply to #721722)
Subject: RE: Cold start and CTS issues.
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Just seen this, I changed inlets with another throttle body and it made no difference. Car has since been rolled in spectacular fashion so is due a re-shell and will be converted to mems3 hopefully.

Im 99% sure the loom is at fault somewhere but its finding it that was proving a hassle.